tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524497770619950288.post5210013575244946870..comments2023-12-18T18:23:05.715-05:00Comments on Marooned Off Vesta: In order to respond to Jonathan McCalmontEthan Robinsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11207042480666924085noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524497770619950288.post-63136107094294912082015-02-11T10:00:50.830-05:002015-02-11T10:00:50.830-05:00Agreed about Samatar; that part is bothering me mo...Agreed about Samatar; that part is bothering me more and more and if I were writing this post today I would go on at greater length about it. I haven't read "Selkie Stories" and have no comment about McCalmont's, uh, comments on it (beyond what is obvious from the other things I said in the post), but she just SO obviously does not fit the profile he's complaining about that it seems a clear case of <i>something else about her</i> bothers him and he won't admit it, maybe even to himself - and so he shoves her into his grand narrative wherever he thinks he can make her fit.<br /><br />Your points about Uncanny and Terraform are really good in the way that I can't think of a thing to say in response. I'd caveat, if it is a caveat, that I think it's totally valid to criticize something "harshly for being exactly what it was inevitable for it to be", and I'd reiterate that I think he's often very incisive on that (though I agree with you that there's every chance something worthwhile might pop up there), but other than that, I have nothing to add.Ethan Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207042480666924085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524497770619950288.post-55667147471154445082015-02-10T11:38:33.261-05:002015-02-10T11:38:33.261-05:00Also (and there could be a lot more of alsos b/c y...Also (and there could be a lot more of alsos b/c you touch on a ton of important and interesting points, Ethan): that Samatar dig really bugs me.WMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14735722504435839639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524497770619950288.post-39428533616269975352015-02-10T11:05:17.560-05:002015-02-10T11:05:17.560-05:00In terms of stigma, it all depends on who and what...In terms of stigma, it all depends on who and what you're talking about. I think that in general as an overall thing there's less of a stigma associated with writing genre fiction. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't overlapping economies of prestige and that placement in one micro-economy may or may not help or hinder your ability to gain the attention of a different one. And I suspect that the size of the aspirational crowd is less important than the make-up of that crowd which is also less important than the actual crowd of "always get a second look" submitters e.g. the known quantities.<br /><br />Part of why Terraform raised the ire of the core online SF&F mag community was that it did nothing to signal it's intention to participate in that economy. It was the Un-Uncanny in this regard. <br /><br />The reason why Terraform felt like it didn't need to is precisely because it has the powerful propaganda machine behind it. It's a small, strange budding off of the advertising-driven, meme-corralling attention economy, which in turn is driven by the techno-utopian, libertarian lite that is the U.S. tech industry, esp. the media side of it.<br /><br />McCalmont critiquing Uncanny for signaling that it is part of the ecosystem/economy it wants to be part of and is a clear extension of is good in that he's not be afraid to critique, but also obvious in that he's judging the magazine harshly for being exactly what it was inevitable for it to be. And, of course, the Uncanny's, Apex's and Clarkeworld's of the world see themselves as on the new vanguard of SF&F because they are a reaction to Analog/Asimov's/F&SF, etc. <br /><br />Personally, I'm glad that Uncanny exists because you never know when and from where a story will emerge that seizes ahold of you -- editors do sometimes surprise. McCalmont might say that we're so awash in stories that you'll never find it, but I don't know about that. It seems like the stories that break their respective editorial molds go the most viral. But I may be too positive about that. For all I know, there are scores of brilliant stories that would dig deep into my soul that are languishing unknown and unread somewhere out there. WMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14735722504435839639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524497770619950288.post-79500312235142385222015-02-10T09:08:27.101-05:002015-02-10T09:08:27.101-05:00Oh, and re: your first paragraph - for me at least...Oh, and re: your first paragraph - for me at least Uncanny is nothing more or less than meh; Terraform, though, is disturbing precisely because of the issues of money and position that McCalmont seems to be praising it for. It's part of a very powerful propaganda machine!Ethan Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207042480666924085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524497770619950288.post-15554015185799178282015-02-10T09:06:29.976-05:002015-02-10T09:06:29.976-05:00Ah, this is interesting - maybe related to the poi...Ah, this is interesting - maybe related to the points I was making in my "My First Draft Woke Up Like This" post? http://maroonedoffvesta.blogspot.com/2014/02/my-first-draft-woke-up-like-this-ramble.html (though that was more about older sf)<br /><br />I often say that the stigma against sf is to all intents and purposes gone at this point, but when you say "A writer can move from Tin House and The New Yorker to Clarkesworld much more easily than from Analog or even Strange Horizons to Tin House and The New Yorker" it seems pretty obvious that you're right - though then again I'm not sure that's so much "stigma" as the size of the aspirational crowd (more people trying to get into New Yorker than SH, probably), among other things... (Not that you said it was stigma, I'm just thinking out loud first thing in the morning.)<br /><br />At any rate THIS is certainly the kind of examination, or at least the beginning of the kind of examination, that the issue asks for.Ethan Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207042480666924085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524497770619950288.post-61262892094722912972015-02-09T10:51:23.481-05:002015-02-09T10:51:23.481-05:00I too found the optimism towards Terraform strange...I too found the optimism towards Terraform strange, although perhaps it's a damning sign that at the moment any type of innovation in the field of short SF&F fiction is must provoke a reactionary or revolutionary stance rather than just a big meh.<br /><br />To expand on your first point: you're absolutely right, and I'm interested in "what specific form the problem takes in the sf field". I'm going to take a very early stab at it: <br /><br />There's a difference between the SF&F mags and the lit mags in that the former pays in some cash and a little prestige and the latter pay in little or no cash and more prestige. More being relative, of course. But it's there. A writer can move from Tin House and The New Yorker to Clarkesworld much more easily than from Analog or even Strange Horizons to Tin House and The New Yorker. <br /><br />What that means, I think, is while it's a smear to talk about quantity, where things get tricky is the nature of that quantity and how it arises and what the nature of the compensation that the fields provide leads to. <br /><br />I'm not saying that because SF&F mags pay, they are more commercial. Because they don't pay that much at all. But the fact that they do pay authors means that every new added market that pays and every editorial decision that is made (that pays) is seen as a form of validation. So the SF&F short fiction market can expand so long as the field itself funds it and the editors involved can feel that it is valid to do so. In this sense Uncanny Mag (and I'm not as down on it as you or McCalmont) is interesting in that, whereas with a non-paying lit journal one can never point at a reason for its existence unless it garners decent circulation (unlikely), Uncanny Mag can point to its economic support as a valid reason for it to exist. There is demand for the more even though the stories it adds to the body of work published increases the problem of more out there than anyone could ever read. <br />WMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14735722504435839639noreply@blogger.com